All comments by: Lauretta

The starkness of the contrast between those two lives was painful, Katie. 

I have many relatives who do not believe in God and I always wonder what keeps them going.  How could they not despair especially as they get older and only death is in their future?  And, even more importantly, why would they choose to continue to believe in that darkness rather than the light of love who is our God?  Wouldn’t it bring much more peace to believe in God even if it were not true rather than stare into the void of nothingness which is the alternative?

I agree, Father, that those who do not understand their faith fairly well could fall into the trap of pansexualism.  In my opinion, which is only that, my opinion, some of the discussion about the deeper aspects of TOB thought should be kept for those who have a familiarity with the basics and probably in a group discussion so that any misconceptions can be corrected.

That being said, I believe that if, as Christopher says, our history, from beginning to end, is about marriage(ultimately the marriage of Christ and the Church), then I believe God and the Church are going to be giving us signs of that reality all around us.  Just as we can see signs of God’s creative, life-giving love, we should also be able to discern signs of this marital union toward which we are all journeying.

I do not trust myself to see every error that may come up in this teaching, but in the case of CW, since he has openly put himself under the authority of his bishops, I will leave that judgment to them.  They are good bishops and, because of this controversy, I am sure they are watching things closely.  That was why I started listening to CW in the first place—he was working for Arbp. Chaput and I trusted his judgment.

I do agree with all that you said, Katie, in this last post.  My concern with the earlier post was with the comment about the “incendiary nature” of male sexuality.  I do understand that very well.  However, if men want to be the spouses that God calls them to be—or priests, as well—they must learn mastery over that nature.  They must learn to defuse it, in a sense, if they don’t want to fall into the trap of using their spouses.

I’ll give a very sad example.  We had friends who had a full term stillborn baby.  They were heart-broken, of course, and our friend shared with my husband that he was so remorseful because, while they were grieving over this loss and comforting one another, he found himself becoming aroused physically.  In other words, he could not touch his wife without a physical reaction.  He hated it but he had no control over it whatsoever.  How sad that he could not even show physical affection and comfort to his wife. 

It was wonderful to hear that the college students you spoke about were concerned about the girls’ lack of modesty for the girls’ sake.  That is truly, I believe, the main thing that we should be concerned about with the issue of modesty of women, is the fact that they don’t know their own dignity.

I look forward very much to your post on modesty—you have such beautiful insights.

OK, here I go again.  I’m starting to feel like Steve with his poor dead horse!  However, this is something that I believe very strongly and my husband is in agreement with me on this.

First, you don’t need to worry, I am VERY aware of men’s sexual nature.  I have watched my husband struggle for many years, listened to many wives whose husbands struggle, as well as being the recipient of men’s inappropriate advances since I was about twelve years old.  My husband and I talked about it so much for awhile that I actually began to see, in a sense, through a man’s eyes.  I saw many of the things in women that could draw a man’s attention and began to feel great sympathy for them, wishing that women would not tempt men in that way. 

Yes, I did dress inappropriately for a period of time but haven’t for many, many years—since before I was thirty.  Interestingly, the improper advances did not stop with my more modest dress.  They may have even escalated.  I tend to be a “target” because of my build, my hair color and my personality so I have much experience in this area unfortunately.  And, as I stated before, mistreatment of women went on during times when dress was very discreet.

I would like to present the position that most men do not have any idea what it feels like to be objectified in this way, either, and to be used in such a depersonalizing way by another.  It is very painful and distressing, especially when it is the person you love the most.  Modest dress will not cure that in a marriage. 

It really doesn’t make any difference, anyhow, what any of us think is modest dress.  Our culture is what it is and the predominant clothing styles have been mostly immodest since the 1920’s.  Men can’t hide themselves away in a cave somewhere waiting until women dress differently.  They need to learn how to survive and thrive in our culture just as it is.

I am so disheartened by the brusque way many people discount what Christopher West and other men have to say about this issue.  Christopher talks about the fact that he became aware of sexual things at a very young age—six to eight years old, I believe.  My husband did as well, in a different way but still at an age that is not normal—for that period in history anyhow.  They, Christopher and my husband, struggled with unchastity, etc. for many years—Christopher until he was in his 20’s, my husband into his 40’s.  Both of these men, through God’s grace, have experienced major transformations in their lives in these areas and KNOW the freedom and peace that is possible. 

My husband said just this morning that one of the things that kept him from making progress in this area was that he had the impression that it was not possible to change.  The Catechism even talks about how one’s deeply ingrained habits can lessen one’s culpability for one’s actions.  And that is how most confessors tended to treat this issue with my husband as well.  It was not until we began learning TOB from Christopher and my husband finally getting some strong guidance in confession that he began to see that change may be possible.  He was amazed at how quickly things changed once he made a decision that he would NEVER allow his body to control his actions in the same way again.  He truly wondered if there was a demonic element since things changed so quickly.  He was so overjoyed to be able to function in society without having to deal with disordered desires every time he turned around.  It was very healing for our relationship as well.

All right, I need to give this a rest and cease pummeling all of you with my thoughts and opinions!  It is very enjoyable having these conversations, and I do wish that we lived closer so that we could participate in your group activities.  We miss having a group that we can come together with and learn and share about our beautiful faith.  God bless all of you!

Somehow I missed commenting on this post, Katie.  Thanks for your response.  So, is the Pope then saying that it is possible to eventually gain victory over the impurity in our hearts? 

I have seen him make comments similar to this in several place in TOB.  Are we to take them literally and seriously?

Father,

Again, many great thoughts and I have a lot to respond to.  I want to begin with modesty and proceed from there.  One of the reasons I don’t like undue emphasis on the issue of modesty is because modesty in and of itself is not the core of the problem and many people treat it as though it were.  Why do I say this?  For one thing women have been sexually misused throughout history even when they were quite modestly dressed.  The Old Testament speaks of it, men were aroused by the exposure of an ankle or an elbow in Victorian times and today, Muslim women are raped and mistreated.  It is what is in man’s heart that is the core of the problem, and the need for redemption.  Not to mention that even if all women were very modestly dressed in public, there is still the issue of what goes on within the homes of married couples.  A man who has not mastered himself in the area of sexuality is going to misuse his spouse and JPII was quite emphatic about the wrongness of that.  Most married women that I know suffer from this.  In addition, it seems to me that if we see someone inappropriately dressed our first thought should be one of sorrow for the person for not understanding his or her great dignity, not anger or blame.

Also, my husband is fond of saying that it doesn’t matter what “the other person” is doing, what matters is my personal response.  I have no control over what other people do or say, I only have control over my own reaction.  He mentions this often to people who are in difficult marriages, or work situations, etc.  Why would it be any different in the case of modesty?  We have no control over how others dress, but we should have control over how we react to them.  He says we need to focus much less on trying to change others and work on changing ourselves.  I believe this applies in all areas of life.

I spoke with my husband about the change that takes place within oneself when mastery in this area has occurred.  He stated several things.  One was that, for him, it was very helpful to realize that noticing and being attracted to someone’s beauty was not, in and of itself, a negative thing.  God designed us to be attracted to the other.

Another thing he said was that it was important for him to come to understand that it was possible to make a choice.  He felt for most of his life that his body was in control of his reactions and he had to respond to his body’s urges.  It was not until he was given very sound spiritual direction in confession that he became aware that he could and must choose at times.  A very pivotal time for him was when he made a firm purpose of amendment to not give in to his body’s reactions any more. 

Also, he said that temptations do not cease.  They may even increase.  The difference is that when the temptation presents itself, first he is aware that he can choose to either recognize the dignity of the person and respond to that or he can choose another path and see her as an object to use.  He then is able, without undue difficulty, to choose to see her dignity and appreciate her personhood and not just her body as an object.  He said that he is able to do this even if the woman is inappropriately dressed.  He mentioned the freedom that comes from having this ability—to not be bound by and ashamed of sinful reactions.  He now has the freedom to choose—he is definitely pro-choice :)

Concerning the issue of undressing another with your eyes, I don’t believe that a person who has mastery of himself would even think about or desire to do that.  How would it help him in any way to relate to that person?  I can only see that happening when one person makes the other an object of use.

As far as the body being veiled because of its dignity, yes, I see the appropriateness of that now.  However, I am not going to say that in the fullness of Redemption that that will be the case.  I do not know if we will be clothed in heaven.  I have confidence that there are those who can experience on earth, to a great degree, that heavenly reality, whatever it is.  The lives of some of the saints show us the degree human person is able to experience the supernatural in this world.  It seems that St. Francis didn’t have much of an issue with being seen naked in public since he chose to appear that way on more than one occasion!  And, yes, I understand that it was not total nakedness but, from the reactions of the people, it must have been considered immodest.

I was going to conclude by commenting on the book, Heaven’s Song, after reading both it and JPII’s thoughts on the same subject.  However, I got as far as the foreward to the book (after reading a substantial part of JPII’s thought) and decided that the bishop writing the foreward would probably have a much better understanding of the subject than I.  Here is what Bishop Carlson of Saginaw has to say about the book:

“Because a substantial part of the book is taken up with John Paul’s reflections on the Song of Songs, anyone who reads it will find themselves at the intersection of the sacred and the sexual.  This is especially true of the book’s second half, which shows how the conjugal union of spouses can both illuminate and be purified by the celebration of the liturgy.  The combination may seem odd, perhaps even offensive, to some sensibilities.  But the point of this book is to teach us to see the body as the revelation of a ‘great mystery,’ to experience the desire for intimate union as an echo of God’s desire to unite himself with us forever, and to let the one flesh union of man and woman point us toward the mystery of Christ and the Church.  If that seems strange, I would suggest that the strangeness is not so much with the book as it is with our sensibilities.  It is diagnostic.  It shows how far we have drifted from the biblical worldview that includes the Song of Songs.”

Steve,

I am so excited that you are going to read TOB Explained.  My husband and I found it very helpful in understanding TOB.  I have thoroughly enjoyed our discussions and hope that we can continue to have more.

This section of TOB is talking about Humanae Vitae, so Christopher is expounding on that encyclical.  I hope this is the part you were looking for since it is the only one listed in the index.  Text follows:

B.  Infallible Means of Marital Spirituality

  The encyclical also marks the road spouses must travel in living this spirituality.  Paul VI admits that spouses must pass through the “narrow gate” and travel along the “hard way”.  But this, for all Christians, is the way that leads to eternal life.  John Paul adds that even if the gagte is narrow, awareness of the future life opens up a “broad horizon of power” to guide spouses along their way.  Humanae Vitae “points out how the married couple must implore the essential ‘power’ and every other ‘divine help’ through prayer; how they must draw grace and love from the ever living fountain of the Eucharist.”  Furthermore, spouses “must overcome ‘with humble perseverance’ their deficiencies and sins in the Sacrament of Penance”.  Prayer and the sacraments—especially the Eucharist and Penance:  These are the “infallible and indispensable” means, John Paul stresses, “for forming the Christian spirituality of married life and family life.  With these, that essential and spiritual creative ‘powerp of love reaches human hearts and, at the same time, human bodies in their subjective masculinit and femininity”.  As quoted previously:  “The sacraments inject sanctity into the plan of man’s humanity:  they penetrate the soul and body, the femininity and masculinity of the personal subject, with the power of sanctity.”

The sacramental life is the place where we work out the restoration of God’s original plan for our humanity.  In the final analysis, me and women have two choices—holiness or the betrayal of their humanity.  Spouses, too, must choose between holiness in their conjugal union or the betrayal of their marriage.

There is more but it is mainly talking about marriage as a sacrament.  Please let me know if you think I can help in any way.

I didn’t have any luck emailing so I decided to post on this site.  Hope that is OK.

Steve,
I will be sure to send that to you asap.  However, I didn’t find anything on the pages you mentioned, but the index in my book had the same listing for two different pages.  I will copy those pages since they do talk of prayer.

Steve,

I just wanted to jump in here, that as a person who has listened to and read a lot of CW’s work, he does all that you have said in his more in depth talks.  The short talks he gives, I believe, are just to get people to see that, because of Original Sin and our culture, they very probably have a distorted understanding of sexuality, the body and male/female relationships.  He usually also then gives a summary of what a healthy understanding of the body and sexuality is as well.

In his more lengthy talks he explains, from his own personal experience, about taking these disordered understandings and actions to God in prayer and asking to be able to see the truth behind the lies.  Of course he has been criticized for telling people to take their pornographic thoughts to Christ in adoration—that is inappropriate, you know. 

He talks about getting on the Cross—actually puts his body in the cruciform shape—and staying on the Cross until you experience freedom from the control of lust and how beautiful it is to be free from that dominion.  Of course then he gets criticized for minimizing the power of concupiscence.

He talks about the importance of constantly examining yourself, your thoughts and actions, for their intentions to make sure that you do not slip back into making people an object of use.  He talks about the fact that if he is uncertain about his motives, he will abstain from marital intimacy for a period of time to be sure that he is loving his wife as he should and not unconsciously beginning to use her.

AS far as sex obsession, I dealt with some of that perception in a reply to Fr. Angelo earlier.  I was also thinking about in the past when my husband and I first began to understand TOB a little.  We reminded me of our grandson who is just learning how to read well enough to find it fun.  He is looking everywhere for words that he can read, on signs, on TV, everywhere.  Every once in a while he will see something that is somewhat unclear but kind of looks like writing and he will ask me what it says.  Well, sometimes it is just squiggles and doesn’t really say anything but he is so excited that he wants to try to read everything!

We were the same way about TOB.  When we first began to understand TOB, we heard things in scripture that we had never heard before, we saw TOB in the catechism that we did not see before, we saw analogies in the liturgy that we had never noticed before.  It seemed to be everywhere!  If you immerse yourself in TOB, you begin to see almost everything in a different way.  Granted, once in a while you may try to make sense out of something that is just a squiggle, but that doesn’t mean that you should stop trying to read.

One more quick comment about something you mentioned.  I believe that if you asked CW why he said what he did about unnatural acts as foreplay, he will tell you that he got that understanding from someone in the Church who is an expert on sexual morality in marriage.  I do not think that Janet Smith is lying when she said that priests are taught that they are to give that permission to married couples.

I know what you mean about not learning things in your Catholic education.  We had one couple that told us they learned more about their Catholic faith in the eight weeks that we taught them TOB for marriage prep than they had learned in sixteen years of Catholic schooling.  And guess what, they were some of the people that signed up regularly for the middle of the night hours for Eucharistic adoration.  Guess they got the idea that they needed to pray from their TOB education!

Father,

Thank you for your very thoughtful comments.  In reflecting on them, I had some thoughts that I would like to share with you.  This is my own understanding of things and I do not express them as the official TOB position but it is how I have come to understand them.

First of all, the concern of many is that there is an over-emphasis on sex in some presentations of TOB.  This can certainly seem to be the case if one does not understand the purpose of the emphasis.

I am going to assert that the majority of people have a distorted understanding of sexuality, either toward prudery, as you call it, or toward a pornographic, utilitarian view.  If that is truly the case, the first thing that must be done is to get people to recognize that they have a distorted understanding.  CW does this quite well by, in colloquial terms, explaining what goes through a man’s mind when he sees a woman, by talking about songs, by discussing themes in movies, etc.

Then, after one has exposed these distortions, it is necessary to explain what our sexuality is supposed to be about and for, the beauty and sacredness of it.  More emphasis on sex.

After that, one would hope that an individual would desire to have this exalted view of sexuality in their hearts and long to stop having distorted thoughts and desires toward other people.

Now, I am going to say something that will probably be controversial since it seems to disagree with traditional teaching on this subject.  I am going to assert that if we want to bring right order into our thinking and acting in this area, we cannot just try to force certain thoughts out of our minds and avoid looking at people who attract us, etc.  If a person misunderstands something, then it is necessary to spend the time reflecting and studying the subject to understand it rightly.  Of course this must be done prayerfully, begging God for the grace to untwist the distortions.

If one is successful in this untwisting, the result will be that one will CEASE undressing others with their eyes and begin to see others as persons with dignity rather that as merely an object to potentially satisfy their disordered sexual desires.

As far as modesty is concerned, I know for a fact that external modesty in dress means very little as far as others’ perceptions.  I have dressed very modestly most of my life and have had men—even in our parish—relate to me in very inappropriate ways.  I have watched young women who were very modestly dressed be stared at by males—and not just to appreciate their beauty either.  Yes, we should be modest in dress as a reflection of our great dignity but it will do little to stop others’ disordered thoughts and desires.

I have never understood TOB to say that we should all be naked but that, if we see a naked or inappropriately dressed person, we will see beyond the naked body to the person that is present.  We will see the person as an image of God and their sexuality, male or female, will bring to mind either the giving or receiving of love, a beautiful thing.  We will no longer see the body as a potential object to be used but will see the totality of the person which the body reveals.

I see all of this, not as a refutation of mortification and “custody of the eyes”, but just a different way of going about those tasks.

One last thing, many people I know who have tried the method of not looking and trying to not think impure thoughts by stuffing them or distracting oneself, tend to develop guilt and shame because they continue to have difficulties.  This guilt and shame then puts up a barrier between the individual and God—just as Adam experienced in the Garden.  If one is then afraid to go to God in a trusting and intimate way, then how can there be progression in the spiritual life?