All comments by: Lauretta

Jules, when I googled the idea of the phallic symbolism, one of the sites that came up was for the Word and Worship Workbook by Mary Birmingham.  I think it was mentioned for all three years in the liturgical cycle, but the one I wrote down was for Year C.  The reference is on page 233.  I will continue to look, but that is the first one that looked somewhat legitimate that I found.  Hope it helps.

Katie, I agree very much with what you said.  I was one of those people who needed that very direct challenge from CW.  Almost all of the serious Catholics to whom we have presented TOB also found that they had this misunderstanding.  I am thinking that is why CW keeps proposing this to people as well.  Even if this doesn’t apply to a few, I believe it does the majority of people.  And, it never hurts all of us to do a little examination once in awhile to make sure that these prevalent cultural attitudes don’t creep into our thinking patterns!

Thanks for the clarification about confession.  I agree very much with what you were saying about priests through their own penance and grace from God being able to handle almost any circumstance.

  In my mind I was thinking of something more than the five minutes in the weekly confession line, however.  I was thinking more of someone who has wounded or been wounded in a profound way and is in need of counseling and compassion.  It seems to me that it would be necessary for a priest in these circumstances to be able to connect in an intimate way with the individual without any semblance of shock, embarrassment or disapproval, or temptation.  This, I would think, would necessitate these things being discussed in an academic, very thorough, explicit way.  As would anyone who is in the fields of counseling, and, I would think, marriage preparation. 

I know that in the two years or so that we worked in that area we had at least two instances of women sharing with us that they had been sexually abused.  We, I think, could have handled the issue better than we did and, if that arises again, I would react differently.  We need to have the purity to react with great compassion and love and with a listening ear so that they can trust us to help them in healing those deep wounds.

I have great concern that we are spending so much time and effort on modesty in speech that we are shutting ourselves off from being able to be there for the many deeply wounded people in the world.  I have been shocked at how many people that I know who have been sexually abused.  It was almost overwhelming at one point when I was being bombarded with all of these tragic cases.  And these revelations came because people were telling their friends that we were doing marriage prep and would know how to help in these circumstances!

As I have said before, I think that if we have the purity to not be shocked and possibly tempted by these very profound and intimate encounters with others, we could do so much more for people.  And is that not what we are called to do as Christians—love, that is, be a gift to and for others?

Also, do you think that JPII was inappropriate when he discussed with, what I understand, were groups of young people that which must have been very intimate matters in order for him to be able to write Love and Responsibility?

I see that this is somewhat old conversation but I would like to ask a few questions.  Pertaining your friend who was thinking of the priesthood, would he not have to be very comfortable in discussing sexual issues if he were thinking of being a priest?  If he were planning on hearing confessions, that is.  Would a priest hearing confessions not have to be comfortable with hearing just about anything?  It would seem that some people might feel the need to be pretty explicit in their confessions and a priest would not serve their needs well if he were to be shocked or embarrassed.  What of the priests who have had somewhat racy pasts such as Fr. Corapi?  How does he deal with all of the past memories of the life he once led?

Could purity have as much to do with the serenity with which we deal with whatever we are exposed to as much as not exposing ourselves to things, whether it be visual or verbal?

Katie, I agree with you that we need to have such a forum.  It may be possible to have it on your site by distinguishing them so that people may choose to participate in the forum that most fully meets their needs and expectations.

I am coming here very much as an outsider having never been in the academic world and certainly not in the august sphere of Catholic intellectuals.  However, I would like to give a perspective from the “blue collar” world in hopes that it may give others some insight into a real need that is in that world.

I have been reading for some time now about those who are offended by the way in which TOB and Church teaching about marriage and sexuality are being discussed and the language that is used in these discussions.  It seems to me that if one uses language that is too refined when speaking with people in this “blue collar” world whose common expression for the marital embrace would be either the F word, or screw around if they were really restrained, you would lose them almost immediately.  If an individual is used to using a very coarse language and is confronted with an excessively refined way of expressing things, I believe one of two things may happen.  Either they will not understand what is being said to them or they may experience deep shame at seeing how far they are from this sublime truth which could lead to feelings of guilt and then attempts to justify themselves by finding fault with some aspect of the teaching.  Whereas if a person were to meet these people halfway by using a term such as sex or possibly intercourse, they would be understood and much less likely to be rejected.

Our sexuality and the marital embrace are very holy, sacred things for sure.  However, they are physical things and sometimes the physical nature of them needs to be discussed.  Just as a priest needs to understand the sacred and holy nature of what he is participating in when celebrating Mass, he also needs to learn the “physical”, mundane aspects of his task such as purifying the vessels to avoid bacterial contamination.  We should not, I don’t think put any of this on such a high pedestal that we cannot comfortably talk with others at whatever level they are at.  Most of the world is not in the ivory tower of intellectual academia—particularly that rarefied atmosphere found in philosophy and theology!

I have very grave concerns about the very public interchange that has taken place concerning Christopher West and his methods.  My husband and I have been promoting TOB using Christopher’s materials for about eight years primarily for marriage preparation but also at the local parish level.  The results we saw, particularly in the secular people who were getting married, was phenomenal.  We had the pilot program using a more intensive marriage preparation for our whole diocese.  Other parishes were calling us because they were hearing such great things from those who had received the preparation from our trained couples.  And our couples weren’t trained that well—my husband and I were the only ones who had spent several years studying the material before presenting it.

We were using, I believe, Christopher’s first series for marriage prep that he developed in the 90’s—as you know he has refined things somewhat since then.  I would like to share with you some of the things that we heard from couples.  One man was in his 50’s and a history teacher at a high school.  He told us that he had learned more about his Catholic faith from listening to and discussing Christopher’s tapes than he had learned in 16 years of Catholic education.  That was in an eight week course.  Another older couple who had had previous marriages annulled, said that if they had heard this teaching when they were entering into their first marriages, they would probably have not failed.  Other couples went from contracepting and talking about never having children to inviting us to their baby’s Baptism a year after their wedding.  Another young woman who was from a very dysfunctional family setting wanted to get the tapes to give to her brother who was having marital problems. Christopher’s methods resonated with these people and they understood and tried to apply what he was saying to them in their relationships with very positive results.

Now this great program that was producing such good fruit is being undermined by those who are saying that they have been hearing that Christopher’s teaching is not sound and that it shouldn’t be used.  These are “orthodox” people who are saying this.

We have recently moved to a new area and were looking forward to beginning to present this teaching to the many university students who live in this area but are concerned that because of all of this negative public comment, we will be shut down before we can even begin.  We would use something else, but what else is there?  Most of the books that are written are much too academic to use with average people and I am not aware of anyone else who has recorded their teaching in the way that Christopher has.

We need people who can take these very deep philosophical, theological truths and bring them down to the level of the average person in such a way that they can use them in their everyday lives.  I believe that Christopher has done that in a way that no one else has.

Some of the people who are upset over the methods Christopher uses are those who think that it is an occasion of sin to talk about sexual issues as much as Christopher does.  Or they are those who say that Scripture and the Church teach that a woman must submit to their husband’s advances, no matter what.  To me these, modest, refined people have problems!  They are using, I believe, modesty and restrained speech as excuses to not look at their own disordered way of understanding sexuality.  Christopher mentioned that he gave a talk to men at a university well-respected for its Catholic identity and had almost all of the men admitted to having problems with pornography, masturbation, impure thoughts about women, etc.
They will not get better by hiding behind modesty and restrained language.  They need to understand that they need to bring these disorders into the light, the light of Christ, and deal with them humbly but without shame and guilt.

Some were not happy with Christopher being on public television.  I thought, to the contrary, that it was wonderful even with the distortions from the network.  Imagine the fact that the secular world actually heard that the Catholic Church has something positive to say about sexuality that doesn’t involve merely procreating and filling the world with Catholics!  So what if it was somewhat distorted, it may actually lead someone to look into it and hear truth.

If you think I have said anything of value, I hope that you will share it with those who are publicly criticizing and undermining the work that Christopher is doing.  I don’t know if they really understand the far-reaching effect their debate is having in the Church.

The problem stemmed from the fact that the request for marital intimacy was not based on his feelings for me but for other reasons.  Either he had seen something, well, someone would probably be a better word, that would arouse him, possibly at work, on the street, on TV, etc., or his body was manifesting “symptoms” that he felt he had to respond to.  It got to the point where he didn’t even want to engage in the marital act but these physical manifestations made him think that he had to.  Interestingly, after he made a firm purpose of amendment, these “symptoms” almost immediately stopped manifesting themselves.  We could never figure out if they were from mental stimulation or, at times, we wondered if they might be satanic!  All we know for sure is that a man who could not abstain for more than a day or two can now be continent forever if he needed to be.

Unless you have experienced it, a person cannot really understand what it is like to be used in that way.  JPII was so correct in seeing that use was the opposite of love.  Use is so dehumanizing to a person—it just crushes the ego.

As a side note, this extends to one’s relationships outside of marriage as well.  I remember as a teenager becoming so discouraged because it seemed as though there were no males that I could just have a healthy relationship with.  I was the recipient of inappropriate advances from teachers and family members as well as peers.  The peers were not that big of an issue but the others were just devastating—and I was never sexually abused.  It is just the fact that you cannot trust or be close to almost anyone of the opposite sex.  How sad that is.  I long for everyone to come to understand the truth about human sexuality so we can live in the freedom of that truth.  How much more we could be for one another if we could just learn to think and live rightly in this area.  I am so thankful to JPII because I truly believe that TOB is the key to bringing about this revolution in the male/female relationship.

OK, I will try this again.  One of these days I am going to remember to type my comments somewhere else and copy and paste them to these blog sites.  They seem to have a habit of losing my most inspired ;-) comments somewhere in cyber space!!

My husband and I will be happy to answer any questions that you may have about our experiences.  My husband is very open to discussing these things, he just hates computers and trying to express himself on paper, so to speak!

Concerning the use of religiously-based continence to order problems in the sexual sphere, the first thing that one has to do is to admit that there is a problem.  My husband’s habits were formed ignorantly, and in a sense innocently, many years before we even met.  During our first few years of marriage none of this was an issue since we were contracepting and basically mutually using one another.  After time, and dealing with the infertility from cancer treatment, his lack of mastery of self began to have its toll on our relationship.  We could sense this wall coming between us and desired to not have this situation, but it took awhile, through much discussion to pinpoint the source.  Admitting the problem is difficult because one has to admit to sin as well as to the harm done to the other person by making them an object of use. 

As we continued to grow in our knowledge of the faith, and beginning to seek the Church’s teaching on relationships and the marital act, it seemed that periodic continence might be a way to undo years of habituation.  In many ways this is a physical addiction like other substances in that the body comes to expect and need certain “substances” so to speak.  The body needs to be trained to overcome this addiction.

Continence for this issue is very difficult at first.  My husband was not even able to touch me during these periods, not even to hold my hand.  This was difficult and a sacrifice for me as well since I enjoyed those affectionate actions.  One also has to fight against resentment upon seeing how much one has really been an object of use.

I need to add that my husband before and during this time was a very spiritual man.  He had experienced some rather mystical things in his relationship with our Lord.  We actually believe that he was supernaturally healed of his cancer many years before—but that is another story!

I can understand why people could get discouraged over this issue since they can be very sincere and prayerful and committed to receiving the Sacraments but yet unable to overcome this problem.  I think that it can lead to guilt and shame and looking for ways to justify the behavior because it seems so impossible to overcome.  Might we possibly be looking at this as a totally spiritual problem when it may very well be a physical one as well?  Just as any addiction has definitely got a physical component.

For my husband, it seemed to me that immense progress was made when, after receiving good counsel in Confession, he made a firm purpose of amendment.  He said that he was not going to do this any more and did not waver from that decision, no matter how much his body was telling him otherwise. Sometimes it seems to us that God is waiting for us to make the first few steps and then He gives us the grace to complete the journey.

I hope this is helpful and please let us know if we can offer any more of use from our years of experience doing everything the wrong way!

I want to add that this is a wonderful sight and I am in awe of the many prominent intellects who are sharing their knowledge here.  A very humbling experience to be sharing blog space with you all!

I hope you don’t mind if I jump in here in the middle of your most interesting conversation.  I am going to speak from a very personal perspective—my own marriage.  And my husband I believe will agree with me on this since we have often discussed this.  I hope I will not be embarrassingly personal for you but I believe it may help in your discussion. 

Because of infertility from chemotherapy, my husband and I never had to have what would be considered a “normal” marital relationship. That is, we never had periods of abstinence due to childbirth, spacing of children, etc.  My husband, due to abuse of himself from an early age had habituated his body to certain things.  As our marriage progressed, it became obvious to me that our physical relationship was due to these habituations much more than anything to do with our relationship to one another.  Hence, the sense on my part of being used.  We talked about this a lot but were not really able to make much progress until we began to read the Church’s teaching on these areas—the Truth and Meaning of Human Sexuality—as well as TOB in conjunction with some good counsel—finally—from a priest in the confessional.

This is something that took place over many years, more than twenty, so it was a long process.  Finally, after much struggle, we came to the realization that something needed to be done and began using Lent and Advent as times of continence to try to gain mastery over this disorder.  As we began to understand more deeply what TOB was teaching, my husband was able to gain mastery over himself, begin to see women as persons rather than objects, and experience a great freedom from his disordered desires.  He is extremely grateful, but this would not have been possible if I had continued to acquiesce to his advances.  This takes a lot of honesty and humility from both parties but I believe that this freedom is possible for most if they but make a decision to strive for it—a firm purpose of amendment. 

This is the sort of thing, from what I understand, that Christopher West experienced himself and is excited to proclaim this to the world.  I can imagine the frustration he must feel hearing all of the pious excuses for not stepping out into the deep and pursuing this goal.
C.S. Lewis has a wonderful explanation of this in Chapter 11 of The Great Divorce.  Men can go on to do such great things if they but master this disorder within themselves.  My husband had women coming to him all of the time at work with their problems and seeking counsel because they could discern in him a man that could be trusted.  They knew by his behavior that he was not objectifying them and being tempted by them.  Of course this, at times, subjected him to some inappropriate behavior from the women but he had the freedom to not be tempted by those things and could continue to treat them in a truly Christian manner and help them with their problems.  If we could but order ourselves rightly in the area of male/female relationships, we could be of so much more help to one another.  We wouldn’t need to be afraid of one another—and I don’t mean that we should put ourselves into situations in which we may be harmed by another—but that we can have the peace knowing that we have mastery over our own selves.

I anxiously await your responses!

This has been an extremely interesting conversation that you have all been having the past several days.  I had read the original article by Dr. Healy but not any of the comments.  To add to the comments about the phallic symbol of the Easter candle, that is not a Christopher West construct.  Google it and you will see that it is even mentioned in some books on the liturgy—I don’t know if they are good books or not but they do talk about it.  Also, the Vatican website has an article that mentions the Baptismal font as a womb—is that the feminine that someone thought was missing from the symbol?  I agree with Katie that the symbol doesn’t have to be a negative thing—a phallic symbol can be one of giving life, fertility, as the womb is one of safety, nurturing, receiving life.

Concerning the issue of modesty, I tend to agree with Christopher West about the need for us to all examine why we have issues with certain things being mentioned, etc.  I have been having a conversation with two or three people—I presume they are men—on another blog who have been talking about the need for extreme modesty in dress—dresses below the knee, etc—and in language.  Interestingly they go on to say that the Church says that in marriage if a husband asks for marital intimacy, the wife is obliged to acquiesce except for a few very limited circumstances.  This has to do with the “marriage debt”.  Spacing children and emotional exhaustion are not acceptable reasons.  To me that is using modesty as a cover for some pretty distorted understandings of marriage and sexuality, much as the original Puritans did. 

I understand that people can and do misunderstand TOB when it is presented in somewhat of an earthy way but that is not necessarily because anything wrong is said but that their perception is already skewed and they are reading their skewed understanding into what was said, as Katie indicated earlier.  Also, for those who have been immersed in the world, as so many people are these days, the way in which Christopher talks is extremely restrained!  I hear young women(my nieces and their friends) using the F word all of the time and talking in ways that you would not even imagine if you are an older person as I am.  I truly believe that if one were to talk in too pure or restrained manner to these young people about these issues, they would tune you out since it is so far from their world.  And there is value in saying things that get people’s attention since it causes them to sit up and pay attention when they might have otherwise not heard what you have to say!

I also don’t understand why quoting from Love and Responsibility is a bad thing if it is used as an example to clarify a teaching or to show that the Pope didn’t have a problem with speaking in a certain way.  It would be interesting to know how the Pope spoke with all of the young people in Poland when he was a young priest and bishop.  We might be shocked!