Bill Drennen

Wikipedia article on Taylor notes that,

“Taylor is associated with political theorists like Michael Walzer and Michael Sandel, for their communitarian critique of liberal theory’s understanding of the “self.” Communitarians emphasize the importance of social and communal arrangements and institutions to the development of individual meaning and identity.”

Does the book confirm this idea such that “authenticity” is found uniquely inside the individual while at the same time authentically recognized and or discerned in the context of community and tradition?

The Wikipedia article also associates him with the thought of Alasdair MacIntyre. Wondering if you are familiar with him?

Father, I follow and agree up to a point here but have trouble with your last paragraph.

Is it not true that what may be “fundamentally undiscoverable by man” on this earth, may in the next world be understood?

Also, we know that science and math as we discover it and define it by our models is always changing and that which we discover is bounded by the parameters of that sphere of discovery. Classical physics does not apply to the quantum level without modification and quantum physics can not be applied outside its boundaries. This is only 1 example. As we learn new things to explain new phenomenon outside our understanding we conceive of new models to describe them. It is not so much a reach to imagine we will do so in heaven with all we discover.

So then we are not bound by the principles of any one medium in our ability to understand phenomenon.

As far as man replicating phenomenon he observes, it is not the same thing at all for man to understand and for man to have the power to cause an occurrence.

Beyond all this I think I am questioning the dividing line the church describes between what is natural and what is miraculous. Both definitions, I am sure can be stretched to the point that the lines become blurred. What is natural is really miraculous and visa versa.

I do however, in all this on this day of Augustine, have the sneaking suspicion that there is a small child out there wanting to ask me why I am trying to count the grains of sand on the beach.

This is so awesome I have to read it several times! Thanks a million! This all bears directly on our discussions on emotions in the other thread and I hope others there get to read this. Can it be linked over to that thread?

I learned only recently as I shared in the other thread just how much I choose my emotions and what an empowering lesson that is in my own growth and in my relationships.

I don’t think so Father. The only similarity is that we do not understand it physically. In the first case the miracle is beyond nature and God makes nature whatever he wants to make it. But in the second case where he has already made a natural world with causes and effects, he then chooses to affect that world in a new way where the cause may be a mystery but the effect is measurable by the same principles of that nature he created.

I can create a sculpture out of clay and one out of marble. If I had the ability to magically alter the clay or the marble statue without a chisel, the changes to the statues will still be described by the principles of their medium only without knowing the cause or the source.

May all inquiry be blessed this day in the spirit of St. Augustine.

It is not only for the sake of the other but more fundamentally for the sake of ourselves that we must learn this. Imagine, if you will, our perspective as men, we find ourselves as mere mortals walking this world inhabited by goddesses of beauty and seek friendship with them?

I am blessed in my case that one of the most beautiful of these has given herself to me for the last 20 years so that I may begin my feeble steps towards a worthiness to be in such company!

Thank you father,

I love this clarity. It is why I did not like the misuse of the sexual analogy but did not have this clear way of explaining it.

On the side, I have an interest in miracles from the engineer’s perspective. I know what I am about to say is in danger of serious folly, presuming to fit God into an equation, but I will proceed nonetheless and risk the lightning bolts. Here I go; others feel free to dive for cover:

I happen to be under the seemingly foolish delusion that one day in heaven I will understand the miracles that were preformed here on earth and even have equations to describe them. I base this on 2 ideas I consider to be true and beyond doubt.

1’st is the fact that any force that impinges upon the physical world must necessarily have a physical model to describe the observed behavior.

2’nd is my platonic belief in mathematics, shared by Einstein himself who said that reality exists independent from anything we can measure. Mathematics then, far from being an exact representation of reality is really only a model. It is a language of observed phenomenon that evolves.

The church defines a miracle as not “natural” but in reality nature as we experience it, itself does not have a perfectly accurate set of laws that are always explained by an equation. There remain many “miracles” of science such as the mystery of the unified force theory still without any good model or the warping of gravity relative to time and space or the origins of black holes ect.

Ultimately one could say that since God is the origin and source of the universe, his actions in the physical world must be explainable by the ultimate mathematical function which solves every equation.

The church in its definition is attempting to distinguish between nature operating on it’s own as we experience it every day, and God’s intervention into nature. In reality however, we may discover that God’s intervention is intimately joined to his universe, he is holding it in existence and provides that missing function solving the unified force theory and every other unsolved theory. The universe is all the time a miracle second by second and there really is no “natural” un-miraculous happening.

What really is “natural” if everything is a miracle?

yes we agree, but I painted with a broad brush on purpose because the difficulty is that it is not so easy to differentiate between beautiful and arousing sexually for men. So I think the key is to see, not the “object” but the person and in this way our natural interest (which again painting with a broad brush I will call arousal)in the beautiful we experience becomes an experience of the person and is pure.

In theory this is anyway, not saying I am so good at it. I may be one who needs to turn away but it’s still helpful to understand how it is supposed to work, the goal being purity in relation to beauty and not hiding from it.

Well everyone knows that American men set the standard! African men I have to place down a lower tier along with European men in the awareness scale (excluding Jules, of course).

Seriously, I think in these observations men are speaking in a much more narrow definition of sexual interest then I am speaking of. Breasts express the very essence of womanhood and are inherently sexually beautiful. I contend that any man who fails to recognize this is truly blind.

One can claim they do not prefer Mozart but only by betraying their ignorance. The beauty of Mozart is objective and universal. Failure of appreciation is only due to an inability to see the truth.

yes Katie, but He should not do that by seeing sex in things that are not really there. I think Chesterton’s quote shows how silly it really is. Would our candles be big, short and fat if not for the phallic symbolism? In his lens he sees everything sexual from the original sin to the final coming and all the symbols and fixtures in between.

Im not asuming illegitimacy. Im Talking about negative emotions when I speak about the 3 options. Emotions that may lead us to sin or that we struggle with.

In your example of weeping I would say that you choose to be compassionate or that you are predisposed to be compassionate because of your former decisions of your will. It is quite possible to not weep and condition yourself not to.

Spontaneous emotion is preconditioned. A person kept in isolation all there life may be conditioned not to respond in the ways we think of as invulontary. I agree many times the controll is indirect but many times not and we can learn to effect them in the moment as well. We also have diferent temperments that is God given.

I agree its complex and not always direct but I do think we have a lot more control then we realise and my most important point is that we are responsible for our emotions no matter what and not only for our actions which goes to your last point.